Episode 03: Benefits are the ultimate equalizer.
FIND PROBLEM PERFORMERS WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS
EPISODE GUEST: CASSANDRA ROSE, HR BENEFITS EXPERT
“My job is to make sure that people have equal access and equal outcomes,” says Cassandra Rose, HR benefits expert and partner at Meritarc. With over 15 years of experience in the HR field, Cassandra believes that HR professionals should go beyond aiming for what looks like equality on paper. Instead, they should aim for true equity, which she describes as ensuring that every employee, even those from the most marginalized populations, has equal access to benefits and equal outcomes from those benefits.
Cassandra began her HR journey as a temp and quickly became passionate about advocating for employees. She learned that there is often a large gap between what employees think they are entitled to and what they are actually entitled to. Now, Cassandra focuses on bridging those gaps by encouraging employees to push back and ask any questions they may have about company policies and their benefits. She stresses that employees actually hold a lot of power within a company when it comes to their benefits because they are the client in this situation. Much of an employee’s compensation goes towards their benefits, so they deserve to understand them just as much as they understand their salary.
Tune into this week’s episode of Problem Performers as Cassandra Rose and host Rebecca Weaver dive deep into bridging the gap between HR departments and employees to make sure equity is achieved. Learn how to best navigate the ever-confusing employee handbook, how to approach an HR representative with your questions, and how to empower yourself as a benefits recipient so that you get the full compensation you’re entitled to.
QUOTES
“When I'm doing my diversity, equity, inclusion work, I actually say, ‘Focus on the most vulnerable. Focus on someone who identifies as LGBTQ. Focus on someone who is Black. Focus on the women.’ Because if you can meet their needs, everybody else gets better. If I'm increasing the outcome for the least-supported person, it's not like the most supported person in that framework gets less. They actually also get more.” (0:00-0:32)
“It wasn't until I hit benefits that I realized that it was the ultimate equalizer. Whether you're making $1 million a year or this was your first time ever having a job, no one really knew how 401(k)s worked. No one really understood the difference between a premium, your copay and your coinsurance. I literally had executives say, ‘Can I please carve 30 minutes on your calendar with my spouse so we could go through the benefits guide?’ And I'm like, this person's making four figures an hour, and they need my time to explain it to them. But so did the 23 year old. And that's when I was like, there has to be a better way.” (09:05-09:43)
"32% of your compensation is dormant in your benefits. If you're not going to that dentist, if you're not going to that vision, then you might as well go to your manager and be like, 'I'm gonna save the company some money. Take 32% of my salary away.'" (11:01-11:14)
LINKS
Connect with Cassandra on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Connect with your own confidential HR coach at www.HRuprise.com.
FOLLOW US ON SOCIAL MEDIA
TRANSCRIPT
Cassandra Rose 00:00
So when I'm doing my diversity, equity inclusion work, I actually say, “Focus on the most vulnerable. Focus on, you know, someone who identifies as LGBTQ. Focus on someone who is Black. Focus on the women. Because if you can meet their needs, everybody else gets better. Right? If I'm increasing the outcome from the least supported person, it's not like the most supportive person in that framework gets less, they actually also get more.
Rebecca Weaver 00:35
(MUSIC)
Welcome to Problem Performers, a podcast about professionals who challenge the status quo at work. I'm Rebecca Weaver. And yes, I too have been labeled a Problem Performer at least once or twice in my career. But looking back, I now wear it as a badge of honor. In fact, all the most interesting people I know have earned this label at some point. In reality, these are the people who challenge their workplaces to be better and do better. I think we should all aspire to be Problem Performers in our work lives. Because the only way to make real change is by shaking things up. So let's get started.
(END MUSIC)
Hi, everyone. It's so great to have you here. I am super excited about this episode. Today, we have Cassandra Rose with us. She is a benefits expert who's shakin’ up the world of DE&I. She's a partner at Meritarc. And I think most impressively, she is a super talented Instagrammer who is making the world of benefits really compelling. I know, it's hard to believe that it's possible, but trust me, you will see exactly what I mean. Cassandra, welcome.
Cassandra Rose 01:45
Thank you so much, Rebecca, it's an honor to be on your show.
Rebecca Weaver 01:48
I'm so excited to have you here. So we actually met, I believe, on Instagram, is that right?
Cassandra Rose 01:55
It's true. Yeah, I was gonna say I think 20 years from now, that's going to be a very normal story. But right now it's like, can you really make real connection on these social media platforms? And I have found, especially during the pandemic, that this has been a light in a very dark space to be able to meet people who think like you, who challenge how you think, and make real-world connections that hopefully we'll be able to meet in person.
Rebecca Weaver 02:22
Yes, I really hope that that is coming sometime very soon. Yeah, so I remember I was really struck when I came across your Instagram profile, I was so struck by your honest approach. And you know, you were doing a lot of the same things that I was trying to do, which is kind of pull back the curtain on things that people don't typically talk about. And you're breaking down what can be a really, really complex topic, and making it so easy for people to understand. So how did your Instagram account and by the way, tell people what your Instagram handle is so that they can find you as well. But how did you get started with that?
Cassandra Rose 03:03
Great question. My Instagram handle is @mscassandrarose. So that's M-S-C-A-S-S-A-N-D-R-A-R-O-S-E, as you can see, I do this often, across all social. So my Instagram foray started because I started getting frustrated that people didn't understand benefits. It's one of those kind of, like, things that people, like, relegate to file rooms where they’re just like, “These are things that I'm supposed to have. And if I have an emergency.”
But when you use your employee benefits, health insurance, financial security, if you think about it, that's what most employees worry about day to day. “Can I actually get the care that I need? Will I have the same outcomes as somebody else in a different zip code? Will I have enough to retire, ever? Do I have enough to cover for my kids?” And when you think about it from the employer side, we are literally pumping millions, if not billions of dollars, to provide the services. So I'm like, why is there this big a disconnect? If I need to sing and dance to get everyone to the table, I will do that. And literally came, it was born out of frustration. And I was like, “How can I creatively tell you about, like, why it’s important to pay attention during open enrollment? Why it's important to make sure you're enrolling within the 30 days? Why putting a beneficiary takes you 30 seconds, but God forbid you didn't and you pass, I have to spend three months with your loved ones going through a very hard time?” Let's get it to the people. And that's where it came from.
And I was shocked at the response to be quite honest with you because it is a very dense topic. Healthcare is not something that you can learn in a day. I'm still learning a lot and I'm on just one side of it. God bless the frontline workers. So that's where it started and I plan to keep going until someone tells me to go sit down.
Rebecca Weaver 04:56
Absolutely never. No, you are doing an amazing job. I know, as an HR generalist myself, benefits is one of the most challenging parts, I think, in terms of communication with employees. And like you said, I think it's one of those things that people don't think enough about, until you get into a health crisis, or you have a family member who does, or you're considering a major transition. You know, how has – we've all gone through a massive transition, of course, in the past year and a half. How has the pandemic affected, you know, from your perspective, benefits and the way that people are thinking about it?
Cassandra Rose 05:39
Yeah, I think just HR in general, I think we've been fighting, sometimes clawing our way to that seat at the table. That, you know, we're strategic business partners, you know, when it's convenient, but when the business is growing, or there's, you know, massive shifts in the labor market, all of a sudden, we just need to produce. It's not necessarily thinking of it strategically. And I think this pandemic forced organizations to really reassess, “What are we all doing this for?” People reassessed it, leaders reassessed it. And I think when it comes to benefits, people for the first time are like, “If I were sick, what does that actually mean?”
And you, you know, hit the nail on the head. It's not until the crisis point that people realize either how good or bad. It's not until you leave a job and you get your first COBRA bill, you're like, “I'm sorry, you want me to pay four figures to be able to go to the doctor. That's obscene.” And that's what's really going on behind the scenes. So I know that the people who were in those crisis points, you know, really appreciated my support. I wanted to get more proactive. I wanted to go to people who are healthy and who, you know, retirement is way far down the line and say, “Knowing what you are capable of, knowing what access you have, making sure you're investing yourself, is not this, like, rah, rah, sis boom bah kind of thing that we're just doing to, like, make sure you don't pay an extra five bucks. It really is investing in you. And I'm telling you that companies want that. And I feel like through the pandemic, because people were so in tune to what that could be, we were able to finally get the daylight we needed to say, “Yes, we are here and ready to support you.”
Rebecca Weaver 07:16
So you know, you were talking about how your Instagram started at a moment of frustration. But tell us a little bit about your career path that led you to that point, and the experience that you had.
Cassandra Rose 07:29
Yeah, so I will tell you the truth. I did not go to kindergarten and when I was asked, “What do I want to be when I grew up?” say, “An HR professional.” I didn't even know what that was, right. There were just letters in the alphabet at that point in my life. I really wanted to be a lawyer. And so I went through high school thinking that's what I was going to be. Kind of toyed around with education. I just liked the idea of serving people and being an advocate for people.
And then I didn't get into law school. And a lot of times we think that's where the story ends. I didn't get the thing that I thought I wanted. So what am I going to do? And I did spiral a little bit, and ended up becoming an inner-city missionary. I grew up in a very faith-based home. And I knew that I just needed a break from academia for a little bit and just really wanted to get and be hands and feet in service. And I did that. And I realized through that, that as long as I'm serving people, it doesn't really matter what I do, right? I just want to help people.
And then my student loans were like, “Hi, you need a job that pays you money, because you need to give it back to me.” So I started temping. And every temp assignment, whether it was two weeks or a few months, was within HR. So I was like, “Wait, I can get paid money and help people get jobs? This is fantastic!”
So I stayed. And I've been in the space now for a little over 15 years. And what's interesting is my pivot to diversity, equity and inclusion actually came when I pivoted to benefits. I've worked with immigration and mobility moving entire departments from one side of the world to the other. I've worked with HRIS systems, just making sure we have great data integrity. But it wasn't until I hit benefits that I realized that it was the ultimate equalizer. Whether you were making $1 million or this was your first time ever having a job, no one really knew how 401(k)s worked. No one really understood the difference between a premium, your copay, and your coinsurance. I literally had executives say, “Can I please carve 30 minutes on your calendar with my spouse so we could go through the benefits guide?” And I'm like, “This person's making four figures an hour, and they need my time to explain it to them.” But so did the 23 year old. And that's when I was like, there has to be better ways.
And if we think about just at a macro level, what's going on with health care, we know that people are getting exorbitant bills, and sometimes people are actually going into debt, to save their health. We know that people are scared to go to the doctor sometimes because they're like, “I don't want to get a bad bill.” But guess what, you're just deferring care. So you become more sick. And when you finally go, it costs more money. So it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then I, on the other end of it, being the employer designing all these plans and negotiating on your behalf, am struck with this bad result of people, you know, going to see the doctor at stage four cancer versus stage two, and having to almost mitigate costs, because now everything's costing more. So I'm like, no one's winning in any of this situation. People are getting bad health navigation, great doctors but they don't know who's in network or out of network. People feel like they're paying for something they don't understand so they either avoid it completely, or they just disregard it. So how can we make this better?
And that's when I started looking into the different aspects of health outcomes and how we can walk that all the way back. Let's be proactive. Let's talk about the network access. Let's make sure people understand what they're truly getting. Let's make sure they understand the value. Because 32% of your compensation is dormant in your benefits. If you're not going to that dentist, if you're not going to that vision, then you might as well go to your manager be like, “I'm gonna save the company some money. Take 32% of my salary away.” Right? Your manager might either be excited or think that you're not feeling well that day. But that's essentially what you're doing.
And then when we think about all the concerns about people don't know how to save for retirement, people don't know how to save for their kids’ education or anything else that you're saving up for. I'm like, but we keep giving you resources. We're like, “Hey, we'll match this,” or, “Hey, we'll give you this education.” But then the one person shows up for the fruit platter, right?
So it's not an employee issue, which is sometimes easy to say. It's not necessarily just a healthcare issue, because the government already has his hands full. What can we as HR practitioners do to make sure we're having an honest, transparent, understandable and approachable conversation?
And that's what I try to do, I try to break down that barrier of trying to sound smart, and just say, “Look, the 401k sounded like a rap album to me, right? That was my personal experience. I get that this is all confusing. Tell me what you don't know. Tell me what you feel you're afraid to ask. Because I bet you if you're thinking it, someone else, or maybe 100, or 1000 other employees feel the same way. And let's build a bridge to that.” And that's how we build bridges to better financial equity. That's how we build bridges to better health care equity. By having the employers actually meet people where they are.
Rebecca Weaver 12:41
Well, that's a perfect segue to where I want to go next, which is this idea of this concept of health equity. So can you explain what is – you know, you mentioned financial equity too. So can you explain those terms and what that means in the context of what you're talking about?
Cassandra Rose 12:59
Sure, I'll use a personal story. As a Black woman, I have a three-time likelihood of dying in childbirth in the US than a white woman. And when we think about that, we're like, “Well, maybe it's the kind of hospitals.” Doesn't matter the hospital. Doesn't matter the socio economic status of that person. That person could have gone to Harvard, or that person could have gone to a community college. That is still the statistic, overall, in the US. And that's – there's a number of reasons for that, which I won't go too deep into. That should be a second episode for people who want the technical part.
But I say that to say, when you're thinking about equity, you're thinking about equal outcomes. So we need to understand the difference between equality and equity. A good example of that is, equality is, “Any full time employee gets this benefit.” So technically, it feels fair. Everyone at this status gets the exact same level. So you would think that's fair. But the outcome, what actually happens when I show up at the doctor's office, is not equal. So that's where you're talking about health care equity. How can we take these things away? Maybe it is, you know, the quality of doctors in a certain area. Maybe it is the ability to go to the doctor when you feel sick and not be worried that you're going to be hit with $1,000, $10,000 bill. Maybe it's all those different components that we can reevaluate, to make sure that if I'm having a baby, or anyone's having a baby in the United States of America, that we both have an equal outcome of the possibility of living through that. That shouldn't be a question that we're dealing with in 2021.
Rebecca Weaver 14:37
Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's look at one other issue that has been in the news recently, as well. And I'm really curious for your perspective on this. Texas passed Senate Bill 8, which essentially makes any abortion after six weeks illegal in the state of Texas. And then there's also added a “bounty,” quote unquote, for anybody who aids and abets, there's a bounty of $10,000.
So obviously, this is a super hot topic. This becomes very quickly an issue of morality and a question about morality. If we can, I would love to actually set that part of it aside, and look at the question of reproductive health care. And what that means in the grander scheme of diversity, equity and inclusion efforts for companies, especially companies that are either headquartered in Texas, or states like Texas, if they’re considering this. But we'll take Texas for now. States that either have a large presence there, or are headquartered there, or operating there. I would love to hear your thoughts about, you know, how, how does a law like this affect employees? And what are some things that companies should be thinking about in terms of reproductive health care, and its impact on DE&I for an organization?
Cassandra Rose 16:07
Yeah, that's a tough one. And so I would start with saying, we're all part of a larger ecosystem of this decision making. And this is not the first time that a legal body has made a decision where I'm like, I know they didn't vet this with any employer ever. Because let's even just say that we want to make that happen. How? How do we do that? How do we go back to our carriers and say, “Any employee that's in Texas, and now that we're hybrid and remote, and some people have moved without letting me know, they're not allowed to get thi–” Like, how can I even begin to manage or monitor this?
So I will say it wasn't well thought out about how we can actually effectuate these things. This is not the first time and unfortunately, it will not be the last time. So when it comes to those ecosystems, honestly, I've seen other HR peers go to Congress, call it their congressperson and just say, “Hey, I don't even know how to make this happen. I don't know how that's practical. This not only goes in the face of what we may believe as a company, but our ability to even offer benefits to our employees.” You have to speak up and tell us what to do so that we– because technically you can arrest and get $10,000 for an employer who allows the plan to continue on as is. That's how I know that there still needs to be more work through that.
A lot of the times when we think about people who are having abortions, we're thinking maybe teenagers, or we're thinking people who may be impoverished. But people at any level of the socioeconomic scale have abortions. And guess what? Carriers cover it. Typically, they do cover it. So no matter where you stand on the issue, you have to remember that health care for all is important. We're moving towards that. And if someone has the capability to have something done to their body, that they're paying a premium for, that's going to ensure the safety of themselves, that's something we need to prioritize over what we may think people should do with their bodies. And that's what I would ask any employer and any individual to think through. Are we making sure that people actually have the option, so that way, maybe that is a last choice? That's not my job as a benefit design manager. My job is to make sure that people have access and equal outcomes. And if a law is going to impede that, then we need to challenge that law.
Rebecca Weaver 18:42
I think the other part of the issue too that I want to talk about is how this impacts a company's opportunity or ability to attract and retain talent, especially women in the workplace. You know, there was a study done by Rhia Ventures on, they called it The Business Case For Reproductive Health. But they did a study and found that, for example, women in states with access to contraception, with better access to contraception, have higher rates of labor force participation, and they more frequently pursue full-time employment. Also, that same study found 86% of women state that controlling if and when to have children has been important in their careers. And a majority of college-educated women said they would not apply to a job in a state that had recently banned abortion.
And so when you look at it from that perspective too, I mean, this is really a talent and retention issue as well.
Cassandra Rose 19:44
Absolutely. I think, Rebecca, that's actually globally true. When women have access to more education, when they have contraceptives, when they have more agency in the ability to participate in the workforce, have access to banks, the society prospers. And we have to focus in on the most vulnerable. So when I'm doing my diversity, equity inclusion work, I actually say, “Focus on the most vulnerable. Focus on, you know, someone who identifies as LGBTQ. Focus on someone who is Black. Focus on the women. Because if you can meet their needs, everybody else gets better.” Right? If I'm increasing the outcome from the least-supported person, it's not like the most-supportive person in that framework gets less. They actually also get more. So instead of looking at it as this almost ad hoc thing, and waiting for the next abortion ban or anything else to happen, let's design humanly and really focus on, if anyone was impacted in this way, what does that mean for everyone? And when we're thinking that way, we're thinking more strategically, we're putting resources where we need to be, and then we're more unified to actually fix the things that are broken in our society.
Rebecca Weaver 21:10
We'll be right back.
(MUSIC)
Around here, it's no secret that most employees don't trust HR. And many times, it's for good reason. At the end of the day, HR works for your boss, not necessarily for you. So where do you go when you have a sensitive workplace concern that could jeopardize your job? Maybe you're trying to decide when to disclose a pregnancy, or how to handle a harassment situation. Maybe you're gearing up to ask for a raise, or needed advice on dealing with a difficult manager. HRuprise Coaches are here to help. We bring years of HR experience to the table and can advise you with insider knowledge of how companies really work. We're ready to spill all our secrets to help you find the best way forward. It's confidential, honest, affordable HR that works for you. Book, a single session, or a goal-based package. You can browse coaches by expertise, and even identity and lived experience. Book your session and video chat with your coach all inside the app. Browse coaches today for free at HRuprise.com. That's H-R-U-P-R-I-S-E.com.
(END MUSIC)
So what are some things that HR professionals, because of course, we have a lot of HR professionals who listen in our audience, what are some things that HR professionals should know and keep in mind when it comes to, especially those who are in a position to design these benefits plans? What do they need to know, and what should they be thinking about?
Cassandra Rose 22:42
So I would divide them into two camps. Let me first talk to the HR professional who is the only person in HR. Because unfortunately, that's more the case that we know. Or sometimes it's one or two, but you might have, you know, someone who's a recruiter, and then someone who does everything else within that organization. So to the one person I want to say, A) I see you. I know it's a lot. If the President of the United States hasn’t figured it out, it is not your job to do that. But it's easy for us to not pay attention to things that we're not comfortable talking about. And I tend to see benefits are one of those things that we, like, we leave to our PEO or we leave to our broker we never dig in.
But guess what? You're paying these people money. You are the client. So if you don't understand something, ask. And if it's not clear, ask again. It is your right to do so. Make sure you're going there like you're going to a steakhouse. My steaks not ready or not prepared correctly? I'm going to be like, “Sorry, no.” Because I'm paying them money. You're paying the money, you're in the decision seat on that. Because they owe it to you, and they owe it to your employees.
And then for the organizations that are resourced enough to have several people who can actually focus in on that, I would say look at trends, right? Like look at your people. Don't feel like there's a one size fits all kind of solution. I've gone to organizations where there was 1000 employees, I've been in organizations where there are 100,000 employees. And for me to think the same benefit plan, you know, the medical design, the dental design is going to fit? That's broken. You have to look at your employee population. You have to make sure that those people who may possibly be in an area, and I'm talking about Ohio, it doesn't necessarily have to be densely populated areas. If a good percentage have disruption, they're not able to get the medication they need, they're not able to get enough in-network care, so they're afraid to get care because it's going to cost them much more? Challenge this system.
And again, you don't have to be the freedom fighter on the frontlines, but pushing against your health insurance carrier. I have done that. I've picked up the phone and said, “Listen, there is someone who lives in this particular area and they can't get care. What can you do?” We're all in a partnership. I don't think anyone wakes up in this ecosystem and like, “We just don't want people to have a good experience, we don't want to take care of the human condition.” So if we all have that same intention, let's take action and let's work together versus feeling this segmentation, where it's almost everyone else's problem.
Rebecca Weaver 25:14
I find this a lot, especially in conversations since I've started HRuprise, where we talk directly to employees. We get a lot of questions around, and I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about benefits. And just that, especially when it's a large carrier or something like that, that people don't understand that they can push back, that they can ask these questions, and that their HR department maybe have the ability to do that.
If you work for a large organization, yes, it can be challenging, because there are large departments that are devoted to benefits plans and understanding how they work and things like that. But I think what you're talking about is so critically important that a lot of employees, I don't know that they understand just how much power they may have to push back. And yes, it does take some time. But I think my best advice to an employee would be, find an HR person who will advocate on your behalf. You know, if you are having trouble, if it's seeking care, if it's accessing, I find this a lot and whatever that particular situation is. Do you– what are some of the questions that you find employees are maybe afraid to ask their HR professionals, when it comes to benefits?
Cassandra Rose 26:39
I'll answer that question. But Rebecca, you highlighted something super important about people not knowing that they can go to their HR department and ask these questions. And I would say, it’s a heartbreaking answer: they've lost trust. They don't come to us until this crisis, or until you have no other option. That's when you're coming to me. And I used to be like, why would you wait until the bill was, you know, with a creditor to come to me and say, “What's going on?” So I think that's another thing that HR professionals can do: build trust.
And the question is, how do we do that, A) in a hybrid environment, in a remote only-environment where I have a ton of things on my plate and not enough time? And I think that's being proactive with communications, I think it's, you know, saying those things over and over again, not waiting until someone starts or someone leaves to be like, “Oh, by the way, did you know this?” If that's just creating a template email that goes on. I'm a big believer in reboarding employees. Because what I heard day one is not – I wasn't ready for it. Usually, when we were in person, I'd be like, “I'm just trying to figure out what the nice bathrooms are and where that snack room is,” right? Like, if you told me benefits, I want to know when I'm getting paid and where my manager is. That's it. Right? But if you send me that same email, saying, “Hey, it's been 90 days, just want to remind you, this is what's going on,” I may be more attuned to that. So it could be just an easy lift for you. I'm just saying, “Remember, you can do this, you can come to me, you can come to me.” And then it becomes embedded in my subconscious that I don't feel like HR is this ivory tower that I just can't touch. Or if I do I better be for really, really good reason. You want to have that open dialogue.
And then to your question, what do employees come to me with or sometimes are a little afraid? And I'll honestly say it really boils down to leave of absence and mental health. I think you when you can point to something and say, “I am physically ill, or I'm going to have a baby.” People like, “Okay, hey, here's this, here's that here's everything we've prepared for you.” Right? But if you're like, “I'm not feeling myself, and I'm not sure what to do,” they're like, “Take a day off.” Okay. Can you take a day off? Can I not respond to messages or anything?
So a lot of it is culture-driven. And then it shows up in benefits. That's what I would say. So when I see that mental health, or health conditions related to stress are my number one, two and three top conditions, then I know we have a bigger problem. Like, yes, individuals. I mean, the human condition, again, is not something that's always easy. But when, in aggregate, a number of your employees are having these issues, that's when I'm like, “Okay, we need to do something culturally different.”
So I know that may sound surprising, but I don't always think it's just a one to one. I look at the total sum and say, I need to train managers to 1) tell them that they have benefits, right? If you're not feeling yourself and you think you might need time away that's more than a day or a week, maybe you need to take a leave of absence. And maybe that's having a better conversation with your healthcare provider. 2) is what are the resources available that touch those specific things? And I think that's where employees tend to struggle the most, right” Like If you're like, “I don't feel well, I have a cold,” you're like, “Okay, I'll just go to the doctor.” But what if someone is saying, “It's been months or years of me not feeling well. What do I do?” Or if you're talking about fertility issues, right, these are sensitive topics. These are topics that take your heart and your head to solve.
And so I think by being proactive, you again, lower that barrier of people worrying, “Will people think I'm weird? Am I disclosing too much at work? Will people use that against me, if I don't show up in a certain way?” And they're able to have more agency because they have access to the information. It's not this gatekeeping, it’s this partnership. And I that's what I would advise,
Rebecca Weaver 30:43
I think this is so critically important, especially with where we see people today. You know, this idea of mental health, and treating it in the same way that we do physical ailments, injuries, or surgeries, or what have you. And, you know, I think about, there's so much talk, and I certainly feel it, I know, just nearly everybody that I know, feels the weight of all that we have been through for the past year and a half.
And so I think about this ongoing need to do, first and foremost, talk about mental health, and to drive some of that stigma away. But especially with respect to, you know, how our companies are designing their benefits and compensation, and support mechanisms for employees, having conversations about mental health, treating it in the same way, and especially, as you said, around leave of absence, this is really where it becomes real for people. You know, this is not the stuff that gets relegated to the employee handbook that nobody reads. This is where it becomes real.
When I have a family member who is terminally ill, and his partner is just absolutely at his wit's end, because he's a primary caregiver, and he's going through depression himself. And I look at that, so it was a real-life example from my family. And, you know, when we looked at what are his options for taking a leave of absence, you know, the company, large company he was working for, you know, would give him, if he had some kind of physical issue, he would have been eligible for at least 12 weeks of paid leave, but for mental health was only given four weeks. Right? And so it's those kinds of things. You know, how can we support employees in a way that is truly meaningful in their lives? You know, and that's really where I say, like, you know, then it's not the handbook anymore. This is, you know, how are we really impacting people's lives in a really tangible, meaningful way?
Cassandra Rose 33:13
Yeah, Rebecca, thank you for sharing that really tangible example. And I've had those similar cases. And what I like to say is, this is what I mean by inequity, right? When someone wrote those four weeks, they probably like, “Let me just throw something in there,” not thinking this would actually show up. And I think we need to throw away – well, let me qualify that. Throw away the old way of how we go about drafting policies and writing employee handbooks, and really take a fresh look at what does someone need to be fully supported?
Because even someone may say 12 weeks is not enough, right? But our intention is that for at least three months, whatever this first navigation of that challenge may be, we want to make sure you're not having to choose between your pay and caring for someone you love. That is the core of it. And I think if companies can go back to that, and really reassess, “What can we afford? What makes sense? How can we be flexible?” Because some of it, and I think some of the lack of trust comes back to, they think we're just trying not to get sued. Let's be honest, right? Where if someone needs 16 weeks, and we want to give them that, we don't want everyone who ever had 12 weeks, and made it work, feel like well, you know, “You did it because of X reason.” Honestly, sometimes you're just doing it out of the goodness of your own heart.
And that's the tightrope that HR professionals walk almost every single day. So I think we need to give ourselves some room to understand that. Partner with legal of course. But then it's taking the person, not the potential risk, not this other thing, and saying, “What can we do to help support this employee?” And once we're past that point, how can we continue as a human being to support this person? It may not be through pay, but reaching out. They should not feel alienated or isolated when they come back from these types of leaves.
Rebecca Weaver 35:09
I think that is so important. I wonder, you know, what are some things that employees can do? Like, do you have advice for employees in terms of advocating for themselves, especially if they're to find themselves in a situation like this?
Cassandra Rose 35:27
Well, first and foremost, I think they need to listen to your advice, which is find the right HR people. Usually, there's a business partner assigned to each employee group, if your organization is large enough unstructured enough to do that. Find that person’s name. Get to know them. And get to know them when you don't necessarily need them. And what I mean by that is, you know, before a performance review, if you're even thinking about like, “I want to get promoted, or I want to devote myself, learn some other things,” go to them, consult with them. They're literally being paid to make the organization better for everyone. And that includes you. So I would say start there.
2) It is not your job to know my job. But it is your ability, and within your right, to understand certain things that are your rights. And that is looking at your summary plan description for your different plans, whether that may be for your medical plan, dental vision, or even your 401(k) or retirement plans. There are documents that legally we must give you that describe almost anything that could possibly happen within these things. Make sure you have a copy of that. There's usually a lighter version of that called a Summary of Benefits and Coverage. So that's usually, like, an 8-10 page document where it goes over the top things that, like, if you had to go to the emergency room, if you went to urgent care versus going some emergency room, things of that nature. Just make sure you're asking for it. Because it's usually available. But like you said, it's buried under employee handbooks or random links on an intranet, may not feel cohesive.
And then to the flip side of that, employers, HR pros, I would say make sure those things are easily accessible. One of the things that I did, didn't cost me a lot of money, let's put a parental leave toolkit together. And so I looked at different benefits, like a pregnant woman is eligible for an extra dental cleaning, because we build a plaque when we're pregnant, right. That's just a random thing in a plan that almost every insurance carrier covers. So I created a parental leave toolkit, just a couple of pages, and anything that would apply to someone being pregnant, I pulled them together into this really handy dandy notebook.
And so what I would say is try to do those things, because people now are seeing something that's from their vantage point, they don't have to navigate through or feel like you didn't tell them something. It's like, “Oh, if you're pregnant, here's something that is for you. And it touches everything that you're eligible for.” By doing those, that's how we build trust. That's how we feel like partners. That's how everyone comes out happier and healthier.
Rebecca Weaver 38:03
Absolutely. I love this. And I will also add, if you either don't have that relationship, or have not been able to find that particular HR person, you can also find an HRuprise Coach, who's independent, who can help walk you through these things. Like, “Hey, I have this medical issue that I'm not sure if I want to tell anybody at work about yet,” right? That's a perfect example. Or, “I just need help like navigating through all of this mountain of documentation that I get, I have no idea what this stuff means because it is super dense.” Just help navigating through all of that. Or, “Hey, how do I tell my employer that I'm pregnant? At what point should I do that?” Right? Any of those things, you can also find an HRuprise Coach coach. That's exactly why we created this. You know, you spoke about the lack of trust in HR earlier. And so part of what we want to do is just give people information. We just want the right information in people's hands. And there shouldn't be a massive gatekeeping around that.
You know, there is frequently a lot more, you know, in people’s, employees’ control than they think. And there's usually, I have found, quite a bit more that employees are entitled to, right? Or that they have rights that they're not even aware of, as well. And so that's part of our mission is just to give people that information. You know, it's not meant to be a contentious, you know, relationship or anything like that. But we just want to get more information in the hands of people.
Cassandra Rose 39:43
And Rebecca, that's why I love that you started that. Because even if you have all this information, it's like saying, “Here's access to Google.” It can almost be dangerous. I don't know if you've ever gone to WebMD and you're like, “Do you blink? Do you breathe in and back out? You might have this,” right? Sometimes reading employee handbooks could feel that way. It's like, ‘Will I get fired if I do this? Did anyone read this before they added page 36, because it contradicts page 18?”
So I will double down on what Rebecca said, go to one of her coaches, who can really help walk you through that. And I will take away your fear of being able to share those documents, because again, the law requires these documents to be shared with you. So if you share an SPD with someone, there's no risk whatsoever. Benefits Guide, anything like that. Anything that's work product, that’s like your own personal work, I would check with a lawyer. But your benefits guide, your summary plan descriptions, feel free to share them even with your dog. You never know.
Rebecca Weaver 40:43
You never know. Okay, so this is a great segue into one of the conversations that we HR professionals absolutely love. And that is HIPAA. So, first of all, what is HIPAA? And how do you actually spell it? Is it also an animal that lives in the zoo? And what the heck does it mean? So Cassandra, where do you want to start?
Cassandra Rose 41:12
Well, I start with the, “Is it an animal that lives in a zoo?” Hippos are really cute, but they are not HIPAA.
Rebecca Weaver 41:19
And surprisingly fast too, from what I hear.
Cassandra Rose
Oh, yeah?
Rebecca Weaver
Yeah. Anyway, sorry.
Cassandra Rose 41:25
No, no worries. So HIPAA is H I P. A.A. and it stands for Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act. And I just looked it up, it was signed into law by Bill Clinton. So it's not that old. And actually, a lot of these things are not that old, like FMLA, 1991. We're talking about things that are 30, coming up to be 40 years old.
And so HIPAA really means that you have the right to have your information be private. Employers can use that information for any action. So for example, if you are diagnosed with a certain terminal condition, they can't then fire you because you were diagnosed with that.
So I have actually worked in HR and I may be dating myself a little bit, where we had employee files, and we had benefit files. And we actually have those benefit files under lock and key, so that way other HR professionals in our department, and we weren't large, could not look at your benefits information. That's the, you know, the length, we went to, to make sure that any decisions that were being made for promotions or salary increases or anything else, were completely 100% based on your performance.
Now, we're not talking about unconscious bias. That's a whole other topic. But we wanted to make sure that your health information or your financial information wasn't coming into play. So HIPAA covers your health information.
Rebecca Weaver 42:52
Perfect. Thank you for that. So here's where I hear it being referenced to all the time these days, is when it comes to vaccination status. And we have NBA players, we have congresspeople referencing it, incorrectly, I might add, but saying, “Oh, you can't ask me about my vaccination status, because of HIPAA.” So what's your take on it?
Cassandra Rose 43:18
So your employer actually can. I mean, now we'll have to get lawyers in, but my personal opinion is that, you know, there are certain employers that have to do drug testing, right, because it is for the public safety. If you're driving a vehicle or operating machinery, they want to make sure that you're in the right state of mind. And so HIPAA does not disregard that. And I feel that vaccination status will also fall into that.
And if you think about it, even within our school systems, a lot of schools will not allow your child to go if they don't have several vaccinations, including polio, chickenpox. So there's always going to be a subset of the population that just doesn't believe in any vaccination, or won't take any of those actions. But then there's consequences to those things.
And that's what I like to tell people. Lke, yes, you do have the right to say, “I'm not going to do that.” But that may result in termination. They're not terminating you because you're unhealthy. They're terminating you because based on safety for everybody else, this is a condition that the government has come up with. And so just like we would do it for someone who's drug testing, if they, God forbid, got into an accident, hurt themselves or hurt an employee, the first question back to the employer would be like, “Why aren't you doing drug testing?” Right?
So let's turn it back around. So it's almost the same way with vaccinations. If you were like, “Nope, we're just not doing any vaccinations,” which some governors have said no recently, then when people get sick, it's the same system they're going to go back to and hold accountable and say, “You should have done more.”
So I would look at it more as, this is not a limitation of your right, this is for the greater good of society. And employers sometimes have to take what may feel like definitive decisions. But again, they're doing it equally. They're not saying it based on gender, they're not saying it based on religion. They're saying it based on a greater good for society.
Rebecca Weaver 45:18
Yep. So there are a few companies that have come out recently, Delta Airlines was one of them, that announced that they will be charging more for premiums for unvaccinated employees. And I think it was to the tune of like, a couple hundred dollars a month. So I mean, it's not an insignificant amount of money that they're talking about. So I'm super curious for your perspective on this. Like, what? Why would a company make that decision, you know, and how does that impact employees?
Cassandra Rose 45:54
So I’ll start as to why a company would make that decision, then my personal opinion on it. So a company would make that decision because, like I said before, if you're – if I catch an employee at stage two cancer, typically they have better outcomes of surviving it. It's going to be possibly cheaper to treat them, because it's not as extensive. And I won't see that inflation of cost in my overall plan. Benefits professionals sometimes talk about that million-dollar baby. When you have a premature baby. typically, it costs $1 million to cover that baby. Where do you think all of this cost goes? That's why your premiums go up by $5 or $10 or $50. Because we have to smooth it out. Insurance companies, yes, they need to make money, but also they need to cover their overhead.
And so, by you choosing to not take the vaccine and possibly becoming sick, maybe even needing a ventilator, which costs lots of money, you're going to impact how much the renewal will be for next year. Because knowingly, you're not doing something that can help to mitigate your risk, and that will create more costs. So where should the cost go? Is it fair that everyone has to pay because a number of people didn't want to? Or do I just charge those people? Right?
Rebecca Weaver 47:17
I want to jump in here and just kind of like, take this back. Because I think this is one way that people don't tend to think about it, unless you have been in a position of having to look at overall benefits, and you know, making some of those decisions. So when you think about it, if you're looking at costs, and this is one of the biggest costs that any company has, right? Right after wages, you know, tends to come benefits. And if you look at the cost of, “What are we paying for?” And I think I saw that the average vaccine for COVID-19 is somewhere in the tune of like dozens of dollars. I want to say it's right around $50, I think was one quote I saw. So don't quote me on that. But I think it's right around that. Versus, especially now, where the majority of the people who are being hospitalized and for long periods of time are unvaccinated, the cost of an ICU, a long term ICU stay, you think about it's easily hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And so if you look at that, and you have a large population, or even a smaller population, this could be even more impactful for smaller employers, when you're looking at that cost, it becomes, even if you're looking at it purely from a financial perspective, it becomes a very, very easy sort of financial decision to make, right?
Cassandra Rose 48:43
It’s true. So we feel like, or I would say Delta, not we, feels as though anyone who is making the decision to not get vaccinated shouldn't bear more of a cost. Because there's a higher chance that you will need care, and that care is going to be very expensive. So when you put it that way, it sounds fair. And I'm not saying it's not fair. But I can see how people may challenge that and say, “Are you doing that for people who smoke? Are you doing that for people who may take health risks? Maybe there's someone who likes to jump out of planes every weekend. Are you making them pay more money, because there's a higher likelihood that they might break a bone or do something else?”
Again, I think these are not easy decisions. I don't think people will kind of walk around saying, you know, “Us versus them.” I think it's one of the decisions that Delta, being so large, and also interfacing with the public every day all the time, based on the expertise they have and the lawyers they had, this is what they came up with. So that's a solid decision for them. I think every employer has to think about it. And Rebecca, you need a good example. You know, benefits can sink a company. That's a really, really, really high cost.
Rebecca Weaver 49:58
This has been an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for being here. Before we go, tell people where can they find you online? Where can they connect with you?
Cassandra Rose 50:08
Yeah, so I am most active both on LinkedIn and Instagram. So if you want to connect or, you know, see a fun video about benefits or diversity, equity and inclusion, feel free to follow me there.
Rebecca Weaver 50:21
Awesome. Cassandra, thank you so much for being a part of this and for joining us on Problem Performers.
Cassandra Rose 50:27
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Rebecca Weaver 50:32
(MUSIC)
Problem Performers is a production of HRuprise Media, part of an organization built around a single question: what if you could have HR that works for you rather than your boss? Well, now you can with your own HRuprise Coach. Get affordable, confidential advice from an experienced HR pro who works only for you. Learn more at hruprise.com. That's H-R-U-P-R-I-S-E.com. And hey employers, we've got you covered too. HRuprise provides independent investigations, harassment prevention training, private employee coaching and much more. Find us online at HRuprise.com. Or email us at hello@hruprise.com. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.