Episode 02: Amazon doesn’t want you to know your performance is a problem.
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EPISODE GUEST: CHRIS RUTTER, GLOBAL HUMAN RESOURCES LEADER, CONSULTANT & COACH
“As an employee, always put yourself first because no one else is going to,” says Chris Rutter, Global Human Resources Leader, Consultant & Coach. With over 16 years of experience in HR across a wide range of industries, Chris is no stranger to what makes a so-called “problem performer.”
However, even Chris was shocked by a recent article in The Seattle Times titled “Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on a performance management plan.” This article explains that managers at Amazon are instructed not to tell workers when they have been placed on Focus (Amazon’s version of a PIP) unless they explicitly ask. This policy helps Amazon meet its annual goal of around 6% “unregretted attrition,” or the percentage of employees that the company hopes to force out each year.
Tune into this week’s episode of Problem Performers as Chris Rutter and host Rebecca Weaver dive deep into why Amazon's policy is messed up and how bosses OUGHT to be thinking about performance management. They also dissect the myth of the "corporate athlete," the dangers of black-and-white HR thinking, and outline the steps you can take as an employee when faced with the dreaded PIP.
QUOTES
“I’ve been in companies where I knew things weren’t going the way they should be going, but the person that I would need to go to as an HR professional, I didn’t trust. So, I’m stuck. What do I do? Is it worth risking my career, worth risking my position there? So, I ended up doing nothing.” (03:40-04:00)
“I think my initial reaction [to the Amazon article] was, ‘Wow, what a way to set up your employees to truly fail.’ Why don't we have a leadership team that is truly there for the employee? Maybe this employee isn't performing at his or her or their job because it's not the right fit. So is it necessarily a...performance improvement plan? Or could we have another conversation of finding a better fit, or the right fit, for that employee?” (07:35-08:05)
“If you’re placed on a PIP for 30 days, they want you out because it is incredibly difficult for somebody to turn around their performance within 60 or 90 days, certainly almost nearly impossible to turn around in 30 days.” (11:10-11:25)
“My own philosophy is to lead with transparency. If [an employee’s] performance is not where it should be, I should already be having those conversations to do my job as that person’s manager, to coach them up within their role….because whether my team performs well or not well is a direct reflection on me. So, I have to take full ownership and accountability for that.” (22:48-24:12)
“I do not think an employee should ever sign [a performance improvement plan] on the spot because if you pull me into an office and you’re telling me that I’m being placed on a PIP, I’m going to stop listening immediately after that and start thinking about, ‘What did I do wrong?’....Take that document back, really really understand what it’s telling you, where your opportunities are, and make sure that you have a very clear understanding of what that action plan is going to be and do you really believe that action plan is going to set you up to be successful.” (26:45-27:25)
“I always encourage the manager [when placing an employee on a PIP]...to, at the end of the conversation when the meeting’s over, recap the conversation in an email and send it to the employee, so you’re both on the same page. If your manager’s not doing that, then you as an employee, I would recommend you do that.” (30:20-30:58)
LINKS
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TRANSCRIPT
Chris Rutter 00:00
I guess just my own experience, my own philosophy is to lead with transparency. So if the individual's performance is not where it should be, I should already be having those conversations to do my job as that person's manager, to coach them, you know, up within their role. So, “Why are we here? Why are we having this conversation?” And make it very clear, “Here is, here's the goal, here's where you should be performing. Here's reality. And here's what I'm going to do as your manager to help kind of eliminate that gap and get you where you should be.” But I think you can only have that conversation and that respect and trust with the right transparency.
Rebecca Weaver 00:42
(MUSIC)
Welcome to Problem Performers, a podcast about professionals who challenge the status quo at work. I'm Rebecca Weaver. And yes, I too have been labeled a Problem Performer at least once or twice in my career. But looking back, I now wear it as a badge of honor. In fact, all the most interesting people I know have earned this label at some point. In reality, these are the people who challenge their workplaces to be better and do better. I think we should all aspire to be Problem Performers in our work lives. Because the only way to make real change is by shaking things up. So let's get started.
(END MUSIC)
Well, here we are, with our first episode, actually, of the Problem Performers podcast. And I am Rebecca Weaver. I am super excited to be here with Chris Rutter, one of our HRuprise coaches, Chris, how are you?
Chris Rutter 01:39
I am fantastic. I'm spending my afternoon with you.
Rebecca Weaver 01:42
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being a part of this. Before we get started, we have some really cool stuff to talk about. But before we dive into that, Chris, why don't you tell everybody just a little bit about yourself, your background? And maybe even how you found HRuprise?
Chris Rutter 01:57
Yeah, absolutely. I'm Chris Rutter. I use he/him pronouns. I have been in HR for just over 16 years. And I really have a vast, interesting background, right. So I've worked in led teams in a wide variety of industries such as distribution, software development, security, communications, and healthcare. Born and raised in Columbus, Ohio. My entire family, all my friends are back there. I say that because my husband and I just relocated to Portland, Maine in January of this year, with our two rescue dogs, and we could not be happier. You know, everyone was nervous for us. Because we moved out here with no connections, no family, no friends or anything in it has just been the best decision ever. So happy to be here.
I can go on with my HR background for a long time. But maybe that could be another podcast on how we got into this world of HR. But you mentioned HRuprise. And, you know, just what you're doing with HRuprise just really speaks to me both personally and professionally, that when I found out about the opportunity to join as a coach, I jumped at it. You know, I've been in companies where I knew things weren't going the way they should be going. But the person that I would need to go to as an HR professional, I didn't trust, right. So like, I'm stuck. Like, what do I do? You know, is it worth risking my career, worth risking my position there? So I ended up doing nothing, because that risk was just was too great. So knowing that you've built this community of HR professionals that are there for the employee, and only the employee, I think is groundbreaking. I think it is phenomenal. I think it's inspirational. And I just, I really find myself kind of leaning toward leaders in the community, such as yourself, that's changing the game for the employees, and why the hell would I not want to be part of that? It's just it's fantastic.
Rebecca Weaver 04:05
My goodness.
Chris Rutter
I’m like, I’m winning (UNINTEL) right now.
Rebecca Weaver
Well, thank you so much. Honestly one of the greatest parts of this whole endeavor, has been connecting with people like you. You know, HR professionals who understand, who get that, you know, there's much more that we need to be talking about within this profession. There's much, much more than we need to be doing some real internal work and internal search. And truly, it's been one of the greatest blessings of this entire endeavor, has been connecting with people like you. So thank you so much for that.
Okay, so today we are going to break down, there's an article recently in the Seattle Times by Katherine Anne Long. So if people, we’ll put some links to the article in the show notes. But I thought that was super fascinating and the perfect topic to get us started. So the article is titled, Amazon Tells Bosses To Conceal When Employees Are On A Performance Management Plan. And so for obvious reasons that caught our attention has two HR professionals, right.
Chris Rutter
Little bit.
Rebecca Weaver
So first and foremost, let me give you a really quick synopsis of this particular article and what the issue is. So what they found was they looked into some HR documents from Amazon, and uncovered a couple of things. First of all, their performance management plans, they call Focus, and they refer to it as almost like a program. They also uncovered interestingly, Amazon has a goal of 6% what they call unregretted attrition, right. So in HR, we're familiar with the term regrettable attrition, and so we can dive into that as well. But they have a goal of unregretted attrition, of 6%. Meaning those would be terminations that are coming from people who are on Focus. So we're gonna talk about that, too. And the last part, though, which is where this headline came from, is that managers shouldn't tell people when they're on Focus unless they're asked directly. So with all of that, Chris, give me, like, what's your initial reaction to reading this?
Chris Rutter 06:32
So I probably read this article at least three times, because the first time I read it, I'm like, “What the hell?” So I think my initial reaction was, wow, what a way to set up your employees to truly fail. Why don’t we have a leadership team that is truly there for the employee? You know, maybe this employee isn't performing at his or her or their job because it's not the right fit. So is it necessarily a PIP or a performance improvement plan? Or could we have another conversation of finding a better fit or the right fit for that employee? So I did some eye-rolling, some shaking of the head, some WTF. So just all the HR kind of red flags.
Rebecca Weaver 07:22
Yeah. So what's interesting, and I didn't think about this until you just said that. So they use a direct quote, so I'm going to assume this is how Amazon refers to it as a performance management plan, rather than a performance improvement plan, which is the term I've always been familiar with, a PIP, right, or a performance improvement plan. So even the title suggests that they're not as interested in improvement as they are just managing people and their performance, interestingly enough. Yeah.
So I get this question. So let's break it down first, for people who aren't as familiar because I do get this question pretty frequently. Is the performance improvement plan a kiss of death? Like if I got written up on a performance improvement plan, is that the kiss of death within an organization?
So first, let's talk about what they are. What I've always said, and let's see if your definition is similar. What I've always said to people is that this is like the company's formal documentation that they want to have in place, typically, before they fire somebody for performance, right? And so when people ask this question about, is it the kiss of death? What I will typically tell them is, I certainly have seen people who've been on a performance improvement plan, and then they move off of it, right, their improvement performs, or – excuse me, or performance improves, and they go on to be very successful within that organization. But in my experience, that’s been pretty unusual, right, to see that happening.
And so what I tell people is like, if you're getting written up on a performance improvement plan, my best advice is start looking for an opportunity somewhere else. Start brushing up that resume. Start getting – because essentially, what you've been given is the timeline that the company is going to be working with now, that – and so keep in mind, like, you now, you know, have kind of a window to start working in. What's your advice to people?
Chris Rutter 09:30
Yeah, so I think it's pretty similar to yours. I think, you know, when a PIP or performance management plan is in place, it truly is, that documentation is that legal documentation that is going to minimize the risk for the hiring manager, but also for the organization. I think that in my experience, it's been very rare that I've seen somebody kind of survive that performance management plan or that PIP and turn it around.
I think for me, what is a really telltale sign is the timeframe in which the PIP is put in place, right. So typically, in my experience, I've seen 30, 60, 90 days, if you're in – if you're placed on a pip for 30 days, like, they want you out, right?
Rebecca Weaver
Yes. Yep.
Chris Rutter
Because it is incredibly difficult for somebody to turn around their performance within 60 or 90 days, certainly almost nearly impossible to turn around in 30 days, right? Yeah. So I think that's one piece of advice I would always give individuals is, what is that timeframe? And I think that'll tell you what you should be doing next. But same thing. My advice for employees is when you're placed on a PIP, yes, you should always be thinking about Plan B immediately.
Rebecca Weaver 10:47
We'll be right back.
(MUSIC)
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(END MUSIC)
I want to talk about the term “regrettable attrition” and “unregretted attrition” is the term that was used in this article. Talk a little bit about, you know, how you view the terms regrettable attrition and unregretted attrition in this case.
Chris Rutter 11:55
Yeah, I gotta say that it was one of the moments where I was shaking my head, when I was reading the “unregretted attrition.” I honestly, I've never heard that concept. I’m gonna (?) tell you what it means, right? You're just, these are individuals that you want to leave the organization, whether it's on their own, or you're going to force them out. So that word just kind of weighs heavily on me, and just the negative connotation, and the fact that they have this, per the article, this known goal and expectation of their leaders to have this certain percentage of individuals to be unregretted attrition, was kind of a tough pill to swallow. Because you look at somebody like Amazon as being this global leader of an organization. And I think a lot of us, myself included, I think of organizations such as Amazon, you know, kind of leading the way with leadership, with different initiatives, priorities, etc. Whether or not it works for you in your organization, but these are organizations that I think help create the standard. And this is not a standard that I can be comfortable with.
Rebecca Weaver 13:06
Yeah, yeah. It's one of those terms, I realized that, you know, when I worked for larger organizations, the term regrettable attrition is what we used. And it's one of those concepts within HR that, you know, when I was kind of coming up within HR and learning sort of the rules. It was something I didn't really question. It was, you know, this measurement that we would use. You know, “Is this regrettable attrition or not?” Meaning typically, it's, like, your high performers, or high potential people, right? When one of them leaves, you count that as regrettable attrition. And so that's understandable, right? You know, sometimes people reach the point, an employee would reach the point that they decide to move on, and both the company and the employee go, like, “Yeah, it's probably best for us both.” Right. And so that's something they were you would say, not necessarily regrettable attrition. So that's the definition, like, typically from a company's perspective.
But the idea of unregretted attrition, and measuring that I find really fascinating, and a real peek into, you know, how you view your workforce. It's from what I understand, you know, I've read quite a bit about, you know, the philosophy of Amazon as an organization, but also, you know, that coming directly from Jeff Bezos, that it's just a very metrics-driven, you know, very, very high performing, you know, measurement at all costs kind of environment. “And so it makes sense that that would be one of their measurements, is, “All right, so how many people are not performing to our standards? And how many people are we, you know, then working out of the organization?”
It comes, it brings to mind, you know, many, many years ago, the forced rankings system. And now, of course, that's considered to be really old practice and not modern people practices. But you know, it was held as the gold standard for years. Many years ago, and this came, from all indications came directly from Jack Welch, who was the CEO for General Electric. And they had this practice where they would literally rank their employees, you know, from a “1” to whatever. And they worked out or fired the bottom 10% of the workforce every year. And that was their forced ranking system. Their theory being, you know, “This will continue to help us raise the bar and, you know, will continue to keep us, you know, in top-performing shape,” etc, etc.
You know, the problem is like, you could have a team that are all performing very much to your expectations, right. And even above that, say, like, “Hey, we have a super high performing team.” In fact, isn't that kind of what you're trying to create, right? It is a team where everybody is performing and, you know, working together, creating a great environment for each other. And yet they were literally forced to work out the bottom 10% of their workforce every year. So that was the forced ranking system that GE made famous, and again, it really was considered to be the gold standard for decades.
Chris Rutter 16:49
And I think I go back to the article, and that 6% unregretted attrition, and just walking away with more questions than I did truly understanding what they were expecting the leaders to do. And you know, we already mentioned this a little bit, but I'm thinking that 6% population, maybe they’re just not the right fit, maybe they're not in the right position. So I'm thinking all these these questions of, can we talk to these employees to find out, you know, what are their strengths? What are their opportunities? And finding one of the probably thousands of open positions across the globe for Amazon, that would be a better fit?
And don't get me wrong, I know, there's always the problem children, right, the problem performers that it's just not a good fit. But I just, I found myself asking way more questions than I did understanding, like, why they're doing this.
Rebecca Weaver 17:41
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, how many times have we seen this scenario play out, where you know, somebody is just not the right fit for a role? And especially my experience has been with big companies, you have the people that you consider to be the “corporate athlete,” right. And we would use that term that like, “This is somebody who is a high potential, you know, as we have labeled them and marked them, but the high potentials, they should be able to slot into pretty much any role.”
And, you know, I've worked for companies that literally said that. You know, “We should be able to put them in any role, we'll give them some support and additional training that they need, but like they're gonna be successful in any role that they have.” And the reality is, like, that's just just not the case. There are some roles that are just not the perfect fit for someone. And so yeah, so what do we do then? So the person becomes labeled a problem, right? Or their performance is marked as, you know, less than expectation. Yep. And then all of a sudden, you know, do they get moved to another role? Because most, you know, my experience has been, most companies also have a rule that you don't get to move to a new role if you are labeled, as you know, having problem performance.
And this article talks about that, too, that there were a number of people that didn't even know they were on Focus until they put in a request to move to a new role and we're told that they were restricted because they were on Focus. That's how they found out.
Chris Rutter 19:17
Yeah. And that's the other thing that kind of blew my mind, going back just staying with the concept I guess with finding the right position for the right person in the organization. If I'm on a PIP with Amazon you know, I might have that internalization conversation with myself where it's like, “Okay, I've I've now realized this is not a good fit for me in this role. Really, I’m passionate about the organization. Let me find something better that works with my skill set.” And now I'm stuck. Because I'm on this PIP and I can't move anywhere for, I don't know what your experience is Rebecca, but mine has always been, on the low end, six months, but historically a year.
Rebecca Weaver 19:56
Yeah. And with a company as fast-moving as Amazon or some of the other big companies I've worked with, like, that can be an eternity, you know? Opportunities come and go so quickly. You know, that can be, you know, truly career stalling, if not career killing, you know, for an organization like that.
Chris Rutter 20:15
Right. And then you're going to be there asking yourself, “Okay, do I wait it out a year hoping and praying that, you know, I turn around my performance to meet expectations? Or do I just bounce? Because if it's going to happen one way or the other, where either I leave on my own or they're going to ask me to leave in the next few days?”
Rebecca Weaver
Absolutely.
Chris Rutter
Yeah, there's an organization that I worked at for about six years a while ago. And every year, we would do the performance evaluations, right. And every year, there would be that 5% to 10% of the population that was “Does Not Meet.” And our task as the HR business partner was to then go out to those leaders of those indiv-- of that 5% to 10%. And if they were a manager position, I’d work with that manager to put them on a PIP, or if it was below a manager, work with them on some type of corrective action. And that was our task every single year.
Rebecca Weaver 21:14
Yep. Yep. Yeah, and, you know, these are all the things that are, again, considered like really good people practices, especially for larger organizations, right. You have to have some of these systems in place, when you're talking about, you know, thousands, tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of employees. You have to have some consistency in how you deal with these things. So I do understand that, to a degree but sure. But honestly, you know, I think about how demoralizing this can be.
Chris Rutter 21:47
Yeah. It was just, it was so prescriptive year after year. It's like, “Okay, here's your population, performance amount with the right documentation.” Instead of saying that conversation, “Is the right fit? Is there something better out there for you?” Etc. It was just, it was so black and white, which is not how HR should be operating.
Rebecca Weaver 22:08
Totally, totally. So let's then, let's kind of go back and look at this from a manager's perspective. If you're a manager, and you are told by HR, well, number one, you have to put this person on a PIP, right? Like, what's your advice to the manager in that situation?
Chris Rutter 22:30
If HR came and told me to put this person on a PIP?
Rebeecca Weaver
Yeah.
Chris Rutter
Goodness. So I guess just my own experience, my own philosophy, is to lead with transparency. So if the individual's performance is not where it should be, I should already be having those conversations to do my job as that person's manager to coach them, you know, up within their role. So first I would ask myself, “Is this request legit?” Right? And if it is legit, let's just go with that, if it is legit, then you know, I would get the right documentation compiled with a great deal of examples as to, you know, “Why are we here? Why are we having this conversation?” And make it very clear, “Here is, here's the goal, here's where you should be performing. Here's reality. And here's what I'm going to do as your manager to help kind of eliminate that gap and get you where you should be.”
But I think you can only have that conversation and that respect and trust with the right transparency, which I think is missing from the article that I was reading. I don't think that transparency was there. I think it was kind of, “Let's be a little hush-hush on the formality” of why, Rebecca, we're having this conversation about coaching right now, as a manager and an employee. So I think that's how I would have to approach it. Because, you know, whether my team performs well or not well, is a direct reflection on me. So I have to take full ownership and accountability of that.
Rebecca Weaver 24:07
Gosh, I could not agree more with that. And I wish more managers really took that on, you know.
Chris Rutter 24:14
They’re tough conversations, right? I mean, we have had several hundreds of them, right? It's just a matter of going in there with the right mindsets and knowing that I want you to succeed. How can I help you do that?
Rebecca Weaver 24:27
Yes. And even further, if you're not succeeding, my first question is going to be to myself, and that is what have I not done to help set you up for success? Right? That internal reflection. And it's that part that I wish I saw more for managers, you know?
Chris Rutter 24:45
And let's be, you know, honest about it. You know, if we're putting one of our employees on a PIP, it's a lot of work for the manager too, if it's being done correctly, right? Because you're going to have these normal check-ins. You're going to have these hopefully additional coaching opportunities. Because, again, you want the individual to be successful. So it's a big ask on both sides for sure.
Rebecca Weaver 25:06
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I think as a manager, I would have a really, really hard time, you know, operating in an environment, you know, if I was told to keep it quiet that, you know, my, my employee was on a performance improvement plan, I would have a really hard time operating in that environment. Because it really should, if it's truly meant to be improvement, then, you know, that should be an ongoing dialogue that we have all the time, that we are talking about, discussing all the time.
So, let's kind of wrap this up with, you know, our final kind of advice for employees. So we've talked about, like, if you're putting on a performance improvement plan, you know, number one, our number one advice is, it's probably time to start looking for another job.
Chris Rutter 26:00
Yes. Always have plan B in your back pocket.
Rebecca Weaver 26:02
Yes, exactly. I'd also love to chat about what some of our advice is for employees who find themselves in that situation, like in terms of their own documentation. I mean, we talk to managers about documenting conversations. But yeah, what's our advice for employees in terms of documenting for themselves as they go through that process?
Chris Rutter 26:26
Yeah, that's a fantastic question. So my first piece of advice, and I'll get there, I promise you, with my thought about what an employee should do is, first, I do not think an employee should ever sign on the spot, right? Because if you pull me into an office, and you're telling me that I'm being placed on a PIP, I'm going to stop listening immediately after that, and just start just thinking about in my mind, like, “What did I do wrong? Where did I screw up? Oh, my God, I'm gonna lose my job.” Etc, etc.
So I think my first advice is, do not sign on the spot. That there should not be a requirement of you to do so. Take that document back. Really, really understand what it's telling you where your opportunities are. And make sure that you have a very clear understanding of what that action plan is going to be. And do you really believe that action plan is going to set you up to be successful? And if not, you ask as many questions as you need to, until you get a good understanding, knowing that at this point that the document is not going to go away, right? So making sure that you understand what is expected of you, how it’s going to be measured, and, you know, is it truly actionable, right? So just really understanding and asking those questions, and making sure that you're on the same page with your manager going forward.
Rebecca Weaver 27:45
Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I love that. I think it's a really important point. And I think this is maybe something that's a little bit misunderstood sometimes, which is that, like, if you are in that situation, if your boss is putting that, you know, sliding that piece of paper across the table saying that, you know, “This is your performance improvement plan,” that it doesn't necessarily require your signature for it to be valid, right?
Chris Rutter
Absolutely.
Rebecca Weaver
It doesn't necessarily require your agreement for it to still be in place. However, I do think that it's important, number one, yes, as you said, like to really understand what's there, and to really spend some time reflecting. Ask your manager for a follow up, if you can. Make sure that that is included in the action plan as well, (UNINTEL) multiple checking points.
And then along the way, the other thing I would recommend too, is that employees do your own documentation. So it does not have to be really elaborate or anything like that. I would say, number one, do it on a personal computer or a personal email account rather than your work. And it can be as simple as, like, emailing yourself notes. You know, “Here are the things I did today,” or, you know, “Here the conversations that I had today, here's what my boss said, here's what I said.” You know, it can be super simple like that, with a date and time. But again, keep it on your own, keep it on your personal.
Because especially if you're on a performance improvement plan, even with that timeline, if it's 30, 60, 90 days, it's also possible, I've seen this happen, where it can be less time than that, and that the company will move to make things happen much quicker. Which means you'll lose access to files you have, your your work email. You know, you'll lose access to that stuff. Can be sometimes without warning. Which is I would say, take the time now, you know.
Chris Rutter 29:48
I think one of the things you mentioned, Rebecca, is that those follow-up meetings, you know, whether it's 30,60, 90 days, get a good understanding of, when you walk away from that conversation, who is going to set up those follow meetings. Right? Just make sure they get on the calendar. And I would also, if it makes sense, everything you said about the documentation is so spot on and just something that should be taking place. I always encourage the manager, as part of my expectation, when you're going through these coaching conversations, is at the end of the conversation when the meeting is over, recap the conversation in an email and send it to the employee so you're both on the same page. If your manager is not doing that, then you as an employee, I would recommend you do that.
Rebecca Weaver 30:32
Yes, yes. I love that. I absolutely love that. You know, you do a recap of the conversation and send it to your boss saying, “This was what our conversa – here's a recap, from my perspective, of this conversation.” You know, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And send that one on your work email. But make sure you get a copy of that, too. Yes, absolutely.
All right. Anything else that you would advise someone who's in this position?
Chris Rutter 31:03
I think if you're in this position, this is a really good opportunity to plug HRuprise. So you know, when you're when you find your – if you find yourself in this situation, and you just need to talk about, “What are my options? What should I say? What should I not say? What should I do next?” This is why HRuprise was created, right? Because you have this library, if you will, of HR professionals that are just waiting for you to reach out to us, so we can help you, right? Because when you reach out to us, your organization, we have no skin in the game for your organization. Like, we are there 100% for you to talk it out. So I think it's, this is why, I think, one of the reasons why you created HRuprise.
Rebecca Weaver 31:49
That's exactly right. Exactly right. We say we created HRuprise to be HR for the employees, not the company. So you get the opportunity to take advantage of this wealth of knowledge that, you know, our HR professionals have. But again, they're there solely for you, and to help you work through what options you have, you know, give you some advice, kind of like we've done today. But you get it personalized to your own situation. So yes, thank you for that. I think that's perfect.
Chris Rutter 32:20
Yeah. Then the only the last thing I would say is, as an employee, always put yourself first because no one else is going to at the organization. That is always one piece of advice that I always give everybody, is put yourself first.
Rebecca Weaver 32:34
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. I love that. Well, Chris, thank you so much. Thank you so much for breaking this down.
Chris Rutter
It’s always a blast hanging out with you.
Rebecca Weaver
Awesome. All right. Well, where can people find you if they want to connect with you online?
Chris Rutter 32:49
Yeah, so definitely LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So just search for Chris Rutter, R-U-T-T-E-R, on LinkedIn. And I am pretty easily accessible on Instagram as well. So my handle on Instagram is @imchrisrutter. So “I-M” and then “Chris Rutter.” And I would love to connect with everyone.
Rebecca Weaver 33:13
Awesome. And then we will put a link to your HRuprise Coach profile in the show notes as well if people want to connect with you as a coach.
Chris Rutter
Wonderful.
Rebecca Weaver
Awesome. All right. Well, take care. Thank you again.
Chris Rutter 33:27
Yeah, have a great weekend.
Rebecca Weaver 33:29
All right, you too. Bye-bye.
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Problem Performers is a production of HRuprise Media, part of an organization built around a single question: what if you could have HR that works for you rather than your boss? Well, now you can with your own HRuprise Coach. Get affordable, confidential advice from an experienced HR pro who works only for you. Learn more at hruprise.com. That's H-R-U-P-R-I-S-E.com. And hey employers, we've got you covered too. HRuprise provides independent investigations, harassment prevention training, private employee coaching and much more. Find us online at HRuprise.com. Or email us at hello@hruprise.com. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.